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	<title>Comments on: The Issue of Dancing (ar-Raqs), Swaying (At-Tamaayul), etc. In Islam</title>
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	<description>Seeking Sacred Sunni Knowledge</description>
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		<title>By: faqir</title>
		<link>http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-536</link>
		<dc:creator>faqir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Feb 2011 12:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-536</guid>
		<description>الدرر المباحة للنحلاوي - (ج 1 / ص 227 )

- السبعون: الغناء، وهو السّماع، قال العلامة ابن عابدي (رحمه اللَّه تعالى) في حاشيته على الدر: (قال في التاترخانية، نقلاً عن العيو: إن كان السماعُ سماعَ القرآن، والموعظة، يجوز، وإنْ سماعَ غناء، فهو حرام، بإجماع العلماء. ومن أباحه من السادة الصوفية، فلمن تخلّى عن الهوى، وتحلّى بالتقوى، واحتاج إلى ذلك احتياجَ المريض) وقال في الفتاوى الخيرية - بعد نقل أقوال العلماء، واختلافهم في مسألة السماع - : (وأما سماع السادة الصوفية - رضي اللَّه عنهم - فَبِمَعْزِلٍ عن هذا الخلاف، بل، ومرتفعٌ عن درجة الإباحة، إلى رتبة المستحب، كما صرح به غيرُ واحد من المحققي</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>الدرر المباحة للنحلاوي &#8211; (ج 1 / ص 227 )</p>
<p>- السبعون: الغناء، وهو السّماع، قال العلامة ابن عابدي (رحمه اللَّه تعالى) في حاشيته على الدر: (قال في التاترخانية، نقلاً عن العيو: إن كان السماعُ سماعَ القرآن، والموعظة، يجوز، وإنْ سماعَ غناء، فهو حرام، بإجماع العلماء. ومن أباحه من السادة الصوفية، فلمن تخلّى عن الهوى، وتحلّى بالتقوى، واحتاج إلى ذلك احتياجَ المريض) وقال في الفتاوى الخيرية &#8211; بعد نقل أقوال العلماء، واختلافهم في مسألة السماع &#8211; : (وأما سماع السادة الصوفية &#8211; رضي اللَّه عنهم &#8211; فَبِمَعْزِلٍ عن هذا الخلاف، بل، ومرتفعٌ عن درجة الإباحة، إلى رتبة المستحب، كما صرح به غيرُ واحد من المحققي</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: faqir</title>
		<link>http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-535</link>
		<dc:creator>faqir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Feb 2011 12:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-535</guid>
		<description>أتيت النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏وجعفر ‏ ‏وزيد ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏لزيد ‏ ‏أنت ‏ ‏مولاي ‏ ‏فحجل ‏ ‏قال وقال ‏ ‏لجعفر ‏ ‏أنت أشبهت خلقي وخلقي قال ‏ ‏فحجل ‏ ‏وراء ‏ ‏زيد ‏ ‏قال وقال لي أنت مني وأنا منك قال ‏ ‏فحجلت ‏ ‏وراء ‏ ‏جعفر

Imam al-Bayhaqi is quoted as saying about this hadith:

وفي هَذَا إنْ صَحَّ دلالةٌ على جوازِ الحَجْلِ، وهو أَنْ يَرْفَعَ رِجْلاً ويَقْفِزَ على الأُخْرَى مِنَ الفَرَحِ، فالرقصُ الَّذِي يكونُ عَلَى مِثَالِهِ يكونُ مِثْلَهُ في الجوازِ. والله أعلمُ

 Sunnan al Bayhaqi al Kubra (15/333)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>أتيت النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏وجعفر ‏ ‏وزيد ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏لزيد ‏ ‏أنت ‏ ‏مولاي ‏ ‏فحجل ‏ ‏قال وقال ‏ ‏لجعفر ‏ ‏أنت أشبهت خلقي وخلقي قال ‏ ‏فحجل ‏ ‏وراء ‏ ‏زيد ‏ ‏قال وقال لي أنت مني وأنا منك قال ‏ ‏فحجلت ‏ ‏وراء ‏ ‏جعفر</p>
<p>Imam al-Bayhaqi is quoted as saying about this hadith:</p>
<p>وفي هَذَا إنْ صَحَّ دلالةٌ على جوازِ الحَجْلِ، وهو أَنْ يَرْفَعَ رِجْلاً ويَقْفِزَ على الأُخْرَى مِنَ الفَرَحِ، فالرقصُ الَّذِي يكونُ عَلَى مِثَالِهِ يكونُ مِثْلَهُ في الجوازِ. والله أعلمُ</p>
<p> Sunnan al Bayhaqi al Kubra (15/333)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Abul Layth</title>
		<link>http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-534</link>
		<dc:creator>Abul Layth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-534</guid>
		<description>&quot;LoveProphet&quot; - their claim that it is restricted to &quot;physical exercise&quot; (lol) has no proof at all. In fact, the A&#039;immah did not interpret it in such a fashion. An example was given above with Al-Qaari established the true meaning in the above quote within the rasaa&#039;il.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;LoveProphet&#8221; &#8211; their claim that it is restricted to &#8220;physical exercise&#8221; (lol) has no proof at all. In fact, the A&#8217;immah did not interpret it in such a fashion. An example was given above with Al-Qaari established the true meaning in the above quote within the rasaa&#8217;il.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ibn Saad</title>
		<link>http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-533</link>
		<dc:creator>Ibn Saad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-533</guid>
		<description>lol @ &quot;it seems like ta&#039;wil to me&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lol @ &#8220;it seems like ta&#8217;wil to me&#8221;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: faqir</title>
		<link>http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-532</link>
		<dc:creator>faqir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>sidi Ibn Ahmad
i reached the same conclusion you did when reading that....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sidi Ibn Ahmad<br />
i reached the same conclusion you did when reading that&#8230;.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: loveProphet</title>
		<link>http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-531</link>
		<dc:creator>loveProphet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-531</guid>
		<description>And the wahabis have said that the below quote from Imam Nawawi refers to exercises etc and not to do with dhikr:
&quot;Dancing is not unlawful, unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate. And it is permissible to speak and to sing poetry, unless it satirizes someone, is obscene, or alludes to a particular woman”&quot;

Is that a correct interpretation?
It seems like ta&#039;wil to me;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the wahabis have said that the below quote from Imam Nawawi refers to exercises etc and not to do with dhikr:<br />
&#8220;Dancing is not unlawful, unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate. And it is permissible to speak and to sing poetry, unless it satirizes someone, is obscene, or alludes to a particular woman”&#8221;</p>
<p>Is that a correct interpretation?<br />
It seems like ta&#8217;wil to me;)</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: loveProphet</title>
		<link>http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-530</link>
		<dc:creator>loveProphet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-530</guid>
		<description>Assalaam-o-Alaikum,
Sidi Abul Layth, can you comment on this quote and its relation to here and if you know of the original Arabic?
&quot;Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Saffarini al- Hanbali (d. 1188) relates in his Ghidha&#039; al-albab li-sharh manzumat al-adab from Ibrahim ibn `Abd Allah al-Qalanasi that Imam Ahmad said about the Sufis: &#039;I don&#039;t know people better than them.&#039; Someone said to him: &#039;They listen to music and they reach states of ecstasy.&#039; He said: &#039;Do you prevent them from enjoying an hour with Allah?&#039;&quot;

al-Saffarini, Ghidha&#039; al-albab li-sharh manzumat al-adab (Cairo: Matba`at al- Najah, 1324/1906) 1:120.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Assalaam-o-Alaikum,<br />
Sidi Abul Layth, can you comment on this quote and its relation to here and if you know of the original Arabic?<br />
&#8220;Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Saffarini al- Hanbali (d. 1188) relates in his Ghidha&#8217; al-albab li-sharh manzumat al-adab from Ibrahim ibn `Abd Allah al-Qalanasi that Imam Ahmad said about the Sufis: &#8216;I don&#8217;t know people better than them.&#8217; Someone said to him: &#8216;They listen to music and they reach states of ecstasy.&#8217; He said: &#8216;Do you prevent them from enjoying an hour with Allah?&#8217;&#8221;</p>
<p>al-Saffarini, Ghidha&#8217; al-albab li-sharh manzumat al-adab (Cairo: Matba`at al- Najah, 1324/1906) 1:120.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Abul Layth</title>
		<link>http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-529</link>
		<dc:creator>Abul Layth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-529</guid>
		<description>The &quot;spiritual states&quot; of the Sufis bring about a sense of security that shows that they will not utilize the hadhra / Samaa&#039; for perverted reasons. It is for this reason that Al-Ghawth Abu Madyan forbade non-mureeds from attending the hadras. I have quoted this in the thread &quot;The Shuroot of Tasawwuf&quot;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;And keeping the privacy of the Samaa’ (between the Mureeds: He mentions this elsewhere stating that the doors should be shut while the mureeds are doing samaa’, as it is for its people, and that once the food is served, the doors should be opened to the people).
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

http://seekingilm.com/archives/144


&quot;...that it is for ITS people...&quot;

Indeed, one intoxicated by the dunya and its contingencies, cannot safely perform the hadra/samaa&#039;. Whereas one trained, having the leadership of a qualified Shaykh, has the security to know that samaa&#039; will be utilized in a proper-Shari&#039;i based method, not to please whim.

I hope that assists you sidi.

-Abul Layth</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;spiritual states&#8221; of the Sufis bring about a sense of security that shows that they will not utilize the hadhra / Samaa&#8217; for perverted reasons. It is for this reason that Al-Ghawth Abu Madyan forbade non-mureeds from attending the hadras. I have quoted this in the thread &#8220;The Shuroot of Tasawwuf&#8221;:</p>
<blockquote><p>And keeping the privacy of the Samaa’ (between the Mureeds: He mentions this elsewhere stating that the doors should be shut while the mureeds are doing samaa’, as it is for its people, and that once the food is served, the doors should be opened to the people).
</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://seekingilm.com/archives/144" rel="nofollow">http://seekingilm.com/archives/144</a></p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;that it is for ITS people&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Indeed, one intoxicated by the dunya and its contingencies, cannot safely perform the hadra/samaa&#8217;. Whereas one trained, having the leadership of a qualified Shaykh, has the security to know that samaa&#8217; will be utilized in a proper-Shari&#8217;i based method, not to please whim.</p>
<p>I hope that assists you sidi.</p>
<p>-Abul Layth</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ibn Ahmad</title>
		<link>http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-528</link>
		<dc:creator>Ibn Ahmad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-528</guid>
		<description>Shukran for the reply Sidi Abul Layth,

I didn&#039;t realize the author was speaking in a Sufic context.  I thought he was speaking from a purely fiqh standpoint.  He does talk about the Arbaab Al-Ahwaal, which I believe in Sufic circles means possessors of mystical experiences.  I&#039;m not certain about that.  Please do correct me if I am wrong.

The Statement was:

وأما الرقص مع أنه نوع من النقص فذهبت طائفة الى الكراهة وذهبت طائفة الى الاباحة منهم الرافعي والغزالي والنووي وذهبت طائفة الى التفرقة بين ارباب الأحوال فيجوز لهم ويكره لغيرهم وهذا القول هو المرضي عند جمهورهم وعليه أكثر الصوفية

Understood with the Sufic prism which you called for, I understand it to be:

As for dancing, taking into consideration (that it could be construed as) a type of shortcoming/deficiency; Some held the opinion that it is disliked while others held the opinion that it is sanctioned. Amongst them are Ar-Rāfi‘ī, Al-Ghazālī, &amp; An-Nawawi.  Furthermore, others held the opinion that (the distinguishing criterion between the two former opinions) is the People of Tasawwuf (themselves), (meaning that dancing) is permissible for them is is disliked for those outside their fold.

It would appear as if Ahle Tasawwuf have a certain Fiqh issues that pertain strictly to them.  Of course, I wouldn&#039;t know.  I&#039;m not a Sufi.  Just a fence sitter. :)

-Ibn Ahmad</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shukran for the reply Sidi Abul Layth,</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t realize the author was speaking in a Sufic context.  I thought he was speaking from a purely fiqh standpoint.  He does talk about the Arbaab Al-Ahwaal, which I believe in Sufic circles means possessors of mystical experiences.  I&#8217;m not certain about that.  Please do correct me if I am wrong.</p>
<p>The Statement was:</p>
<p>وأما الرقص مع أنه نوع من النقص فذهبت طائفة الى الكراهة وذهبت طائفة الى الاباحة منهم الرافعي والغزالي والنووي وذهبت طائفة الى التفرقة بين ارباب الأحوال فيجوز لهم ويكره لغيرهم وهذا القول هو المرضي عند جمهورهم وعليه أكثر الصوفية</p>
<p>Understood with the Sufic prism which you called for, I understand it to be:</p>
<p>As for dancing, taking into consideration (that it could be construed as) a type of shortcoming/deficiency; Some held the opinion that it is disliked while others held the opinion that it is sanctioned. Amongst them are Ar-Rāfi‘ī, Al-Ghazālī, &amp; An-Nawawi.  Furthermore, others held the opinion that (the distinguishing criterion between the two former opinions) is the People of Tasawwuf (themselves), (meaning that dancing) is permissible for them is is disliked for those outside their fold.</p>
<p>It would appear as if Ahle Tasawwuf have a certain Fiqh issues that pertain strictly to them.  Of course, I wouldn&#8217;t know.  I&#8217;m not a Sufi.  Just a fence sitter. <img src='http://www.seekingilm.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>-Ibn Ahmad</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Abul Layth</title>
		<link>http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-527</link>
		<dc:creator>Abul Layth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seekingilm.com/archives/50#comment-527</guid>
		<description>To our beloved and missed Sidi Ibn Ahmad,

The reason I left &quot;Samaa&#039;&quot;, as you noticed, untranslated is because it denotes more than just singing. I did, however, translate it a few times as &quot;audition&quot;. It is vague as to whether or not musical instruments are used in &quot;Samaa&#039;&quot;. The Shaadhilis only use the daff; is this a musical instrument? Some pseudo-salafis say no it isn&#039;t because the Nabi allowed it.

To the Sufis, the term is not used in a unanimous fashion. Some sufis may use it to denote certain actions specific to their tariqah, others may use it strictly for listening to music etc. So due to the ambiguous meaning, I decided that the usage of samaa&#039; is subjective, and elaboration is thus needed by the intended speaker.

I hope that was not dodging the question, though it may have been.

Also, in your translation to the above quote by Sidi Faqir, I urge to pay close attention to the words:

وذهبت طائفة الى التفرقة بين ارباب الأحوال

Think of this statement in the mind of a Sufi.

Jazaakum Allahu Khairan
-Abul Layth</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To our beloved and missed Sidi Ibn Ahmad,</p>
<p>The reason I left &#8220;Samaa&#8217;&#8221;, as you noticed, untranslated is because it denotes more than just singing. I did, however, translate it a few times as &#8220;audition&#8221;. It is vague as to whether or not musical instruments are used in &#8220;Samaa&#8217;&#8221;. The Shaadhilis only use the daff; is this a musical instrument? Some pseudo-salafis say no it isn&#8217;t because the Nabi allowed it.</p>
<p>To the Sufis, the term is not used in a unanimous fashion. Some sufis may use it to denote certain actions specific to their tariqah, others may use it strictly for listening to music etc. So due to the ambiguous meaning, I decided that the usage of samaa&#8217; is subjective, and elaboration is thus needed by the intended speaker.</p>
<p>I hope that was not dodging the question, though it may have been.</p>
<p>Also, in your translation to the above quote by Sidi Faqir, I urge to pay close attention to the words:</p>
<p>وذهبت طائفة الى التفرقة بين ارباب الأحوال</p>
<p>Think of this statement in the mind of a Sufi.</p>
<p>Jazaakum Allahu Khairan<br />
-Abul Layth</p>
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