Imam Al-Haramayn Al-Juwayni on the Mujassimah and Istawa
We shall reproduce here a discussion presented by the Imam of the two Harams, Al-Juwayni – The Shaykh of Imam Al-Ghazzali, responding to the Karramiyyah, a group of anthropomorphists around 300 A.H, as well as the entire group of anthropomorphists that existed until his passing (rahimahullah). You will notice that many of the arguments he refutes are still, to this very day, utilized by the neo-Muqatilliyyah.
- “Spatial extension (التحيز ) is among those that are particular to atoms and the doctrine of the people of Truth, without exception, is that Allah ta’alaa transcends spatial extension and being particularized by a direction. The Karramiyyah and some of the anthropomorphists hold that the Creator – who is exalted above what they say – is spatially extended and particularized by the direction of upward. But the proof of the falsity of what they teach is that what is particularized by direction exists on a par with bodies and everything that is on a par with bodies cannot escape being equivalent in dimensions, or to the dimensions of a part of it, or by which a part of it is measured. Each principle leads either to the measurement of Allah or to dividing Him into parts, both are obvious heresies. Beyond that, what measures bodies may be contiguous to them and what allows of bodily contiguity and apposition is itself temporally produced, since the way to prove the temporal production of atoms depends on their susceptibility to contiguousness and apposition, as previously noted. If they generalize the proof of the temporal production of the atom, accepting the temporal production of what they assert is spatially extended, must follow. If they reject the proof as a consequence of what they insist upon, the means to establish the temporal production of the atom ceases to be available.If, morever, they adduce support from the apparent meaning of Allah’s words,
الرَّحْمَنُ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَى
“The Merciful Istawaa upon the throne” [20:5],
our method is to counter with verses that allow us to give this statement an allegorical interpretation. Among these is His statement,
وَهُوَ مَعَكُمْ أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ
“He is with you wherever you are.” [57:4]
and
أَفَمَنْ هُوَ قَآئِمٌ عَلَى كُلِّ نَفْسٍ بِمَا كَسَبَتْ
“Is then He who stands over every soul knowing what it earns…” [13:33]
What is the meaning of these verses? If they construe them as His being with us in terms of encompassing and knowledge, we cannot be prevented from understanding “Istawaa” as meaning supremacy and dominion. This is a meaning widely understood in the language since the ‘arabs say, “so and so holds [istawa] the seat of power” in a case where that person possesses the key of government and rules over the people. And mentioning in this instance the throne indicates that it is the most exalted of created things in the minds of men. He mentions it here as a reminder of all that is beneath it in rank.
If one were to claim that Istawaa, understood as dominion, intends a previous struggle and competition, we reply that this is false because, if “seating” gave that implication, “supremacy” would do likewise [which it does not]. But does seating in the sense of becoming firmly established presuppose disorder and agitation prior to it? That requires, however, admitting to heresy. But, to construe istawaa as the purpose of Allah’s command with respect to the throne is not out of line; this was the interpretation given by Sufyan Ath-Thawri (rahimuhullah) [See Comment A Below]. He supported such with the words of Allah, “Then He ascended [istawaa] to the sky and it was then smoke” [41:11], but here with the sense of “directed himself to”.
Someone might ask why not take the verse in its apparent meaning, instead of resorting to allegorical interpretation, by arguing that it is one of the ambiguous verses whose interpretation Allah only knows. To that we say: If the purpose of this question is to keep istawaa strictly within the limits of what is meant when using it literally, then it surely means “to become firmly established” and that results necessarily in a doctrine of corporeality. Any doubt in this matter falls under ths same judgement and ends up as a belief in corporeality. Deciding that the sense “to become firmly established” is impossible, supposes, on the contrary, that the apparent meaning is not applicable in this case. And thus those who demand that the import of the verse remain within its apparent sense have no justification for this position.”
End Quote From كتاب الإرشاد إلى قواطع الأدلة في أصول الاعتقاد
Comment A regarding Sufyan Ath-Thawri and Istawa:
Shaykh Gibril Haddad writes,
-
Sufyan al-Thawri (d. 161) interpreted istiwa’ in the verse { The Merciful established Himself over the Throne } (20:5) as “a command concerning the Throne” (amrun fi al-`arsh), as related by Imam al-Haramayn al-Juwayni and quoted by al-Yafi`i in the latter’s book Marham al-`Ilal al-Mu`dila fi Daf` al-Shubah wa al-Radd `ala al-Mu`tazila (“Book of the Resolution of Difficult Problems for the Removal of Doubts and the Refutation of the Mu`tazila”):
The understanding of istiwa’ as the turning of Allah – Most High – to a particular command concerning the Throne is not far-fetched, and this is the ta’wil of Imam Sufyan al-Thawri, who took as corroborating evidence for it the verse: { Then turned He (thumma istawa) to the heaven when it was smoke } (41:11), meaning: “He proceeded to it” (qasada ilayha).
[ftnt: In al-Yafi`i, Marham al-`Ilal (p. 245) and Abu al-Ma`ali Ibn al-Juwayni, al-Irshad (p. 59-60). taken from : http://www.livingislam.org/istiwa_e.html]
He also quotes Imam At-Tabari saying,
-
Al-Tabari said, in his commentary on the verse { Then turned He (thumma istawa) to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens } (2:29):
“The meaning of istiwa’ in this verse is height (`uluw) and elevation… but if one claims that this means displacement for Allah, tell him: He is high and elevated over the heaven with the height of sovereignty and power, not the height of displacement and movement to and fro.”
as salaamu alaykum,
Did imam juwaynee rahimahullah repent from tawil and turn just strictly to tafwid?
ws wr wb
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9694
as salaamu alaykum,
I believe the safest is to just accept what the salaf accepted. It seems like the salaf interpreted Istiwa to be Rising above Rising over -towering above. I think there is nothing wrong with this as long as you dont liken it to creation. Same with face hands , descending etc.. and saying where is Allaah since the Prophet salalahu alayhi wa salam asked the slave girl and she clearly indicated that Allah was above heavens. I dont think that it means tahayuz. For Allah is not incased or enveloped or encompassed in the heavens. he is distinct from creation. I think even salafis say this too that he is distinct from creation above heavens.
Allahu ta ala alim!
Check out creed of abu bakr al-ismaeli and abu uthman ibn abdur rahman as sabuni rahimahullah. Some people thought abu uthman made tafwid but his text show that he believed Allaah was really above the heavens distinct from creation. he even quouted the ayah on Firawn wanting to build a tower to see the ilah of musa alayhi salam and he explained in the line after that.. that he thought musa alayhi salam to be a liar means that Musa alayhi wa salam taught him of a God above the heavens.
Im just afraid of constantly making tafwid and tawil of everything including the words of the salaf such as bukhari rahimahullah views that Allah was above the heavens and his quouting the ulama on this.
Allaahu alim
Akhi, did you actually read the entire book?
It says near the beginning:
ويجرونه على الظاهر، ويكلون علمه إلى الله تعالى، ويقرون بأن تأويله لا يعلمه إلا الله، كما أخبر الله عن الراسخين في العلم أنهم يقولونه في قوله تعالى: (والراسخون في العلم يقولون: آمنا به، كل من عند ربنا. وما يذكر إلا أولو الألباب
So he’s saying:
1) these attributes are passed along as they appear in the Quran, i.e. the same literal words ‘yad’, ‘wajh’ are used….
2) it’s knowledge is left to Allah (note, he doesn’t say we know precisely what it means!)
3) And in fact he quotes the ayah from Sura Al-Nisa to show that none knows the real interpretation except Allah! Which is interesting, because it is the Ash’aris who say that these verses are ambiguous in meaning.
He also mentions:
ويطلقون ما أطلقه سبحانه وتعالى من استوائه على العرش، ويمرونه على ظاهره ويكلون علمه إلى الله
So are you also prepared to do like him, and utter the literal words that come in the Quran and Sunnah but consign knowledge of it to Allah?
As for Fir’awn, I didn’t find any mention of him in the entire book.
Now, Imam Sabuni does quote from Imam Ibn Khuzayma, whose book on aqida has been criticized. Imam Ibn Khuzayma slipped in aqida, and he slipped bad. Imam Abu Zur’a (or Abu Hatim), a leader of the Ahl Al-Hadith criticized him for indulging in what he ought to have steered clear of.
I think it was Imam Bayhaqi who narrated Ibn Khuzaima’s ‘well-known remorse’.
Wallahu a’lam.
as salaamu alaykum,
Akhi im aware of this but you see thereafter that what he means is tafwid of kayf. This is indicated clearly when he starts going into proof that Allaah has hands. Then he mentions later istiwa. In that section he includes ayahs on the good deeds going up to Allah. which proves he believed that Allah was literally above the heavens. He also mentions about Allah’s coming and quotes the son of abu hanifa rahimahullah asking a people of what they think of the ayah that Allah and the angels shall come in clouds.
They said as far as angels they come in clouds. as far as Allaah we dont know what it means nor how. And the son of abu hanifa rahimahullah mentions that we dont ask you to know how but we ask you to know that He comes.
What do you say of one who denies the coming of the angels?
They said: he is a disbeliever
Imam muhammad rahimahullah said it is the same for one who denies Allah’s coming.
Allaahu alim akhi
Regarding the claim of Musaa and Fir’awn:
http://seekingilm.com/archives/271
as salaamu alaykum,
jazakallaah khayr sidi abul layth. A good read. Now i sort of undertand abu bakr ibn arabi rahimahullah saying concerning pharoah and those who believe Allaah is above. Though i still think its permissible to ask where is Allah (as in the hadith) and to say fis sama as long as what one intends is that Allah is over the heavens DISTINCT FROM CREATION. What do you think abul layth? I understand shaykh nuh hafidullah explanation but i have seen like i told you before other researches that suggest that those were separate and different ahaadiths not talking about the same incident.
Perhaps im just not getting inshaallah help me understand akhi
as salaamu alaykum,
also sidi have you heard of at tabari rahimahullah mentioning that Musa alayhi wa salam said his lord was above the heavens to firawn in his tafsir?
What does “Where” denote? It denotes “place” or “space”. The term can not be used save with such created response as ‘here’ or ‘there’ – referring to space or location.
As Imam Al-Juwayni said: “Spatial extension (التحيز ) is among those that are particular to atoms and the doctrine of the people of Truth, without exception, is that Allah ta’alaa transcends spatial extension and being particularized by a direction.”
When one asks “where”, they are in fact asking for some type of cooridinate by which that entity exists in. Hence, such questioning is impossible for Allah ta’alaa.
There is consensus of Ahlus Sunnah that Allah ta’alaa is not confined by space nor time. And also, “Over the heavens” is location and direction, and neither are relative to Allah. If something is over, then something is necessarily UNDER, which means both “up” and “down” are being applied to Allah. As Imam At-Tahawi said,
So we are left with two options:
1) We read them as they have come to us, without delving into the meaning or the modality.
2) We are forced to interpret them, as some of the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah have done, while consigning true knowledge with Allah ta’alaa alone. Ta’weel was done by Imam Al-Juwayni, as you can see above, and he strongly believed in its validity.
The safest, as Imam As-Suyuti and others have said, is to simply entrust Allah ta’alaa with the true meaning and reality of the issue, and leave it as it is. This is the way of Ahlus Sunnah.
Imam Tabari explains Fir’awn’s understanding:
وقوله: { وَإني لأَظُنُّهُ كاذِباً } يقول: وإني لأظنّ موسى كاذباً فيما يقول ويدّعي من أن له في السماء رباً أرسله إلينا.
وقوله: { وكَذَلكَ زُيِّنَ لِفَرْعَوْنَ سُوءُ عَمَلِهِ } يقول الله تعالى ذكره: وهكذا زين الله لفرعون حين عتا عليه وتمردّ، قبيح عمله، حتى سوّلت له نفسه بلوغ أسباب السموات، ليطلع إلى إله موسى.
The end part says that “..his [i.e. Fir'awn's] nafs CONTRIVED THE NOTION of attaining the means of reaching the skies to come unto the Lord of Musa [as]..”
And as for the Imam himself, he explains his own understanding of Allah’s ‘highness’ above the Throne as:
علا علـيها علوّ ملك وسلطان لا علوّ انتقال وزوال
“He is high and elevated over the heaven with the ‘height’ of sovereignty and power, not the height of displacement and movement to and fro…”
as salaamu alaykum,
Sidi abul layth I get you bro i really do however, I feel that the slave girl she knew what the nabi salalahu alayhi wa salam was asking. She said fis sama above the heavens. So, this makes it a sunnah to ask where is Allaah, and it also permits that we can say fis sama does it not or am i wrong?
Shaykh Nuh has responded to the slave-girl narration. You can read what he said in the following comment:
http://seekingilm.com/archives/271#comment-2341
The bottom line is that this narration can easily be either explained or proven insufficient in meeting the requirements of utmost authenticity.
Yes akhi, it is fine to say that because it has been narrated with an authentic chain. Not only that, ‘fis-sama’ has been used in the Quran as well. However, an incorrect understanding of this phrase differentiates between correct and false belief.
..just as Allah being in front of the one praying, and closer to one that one’s own jugular vein are also found in the Quran and Sunnah. And again, the same rule applies.
Ya akhi, let me tell you something. I am an ex-shia myself; having indulged much in polemics, I have seen from them {and other groups} the building of entire dogmatic structures based on the *specific* wording of ONE version of a hadith that has more than one version. Even the monkeys down at NASA know that the early salaf used to relate ahadith by paraphrasing.
That is why you find one hadith in Sahih Muslim that states “This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them” while only two down it states that “Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs”.
Will you now agree with a Shi’ite if he uses the first narration in isolation to ‘prove’ that there will ONLY be 12 khalifas after the Prophet [s]? It would be sheer folly!
So you see, ya akhi, that even a SAHIH collection like that of Muslim contains authentic ahadith which – if one version is isolated from the rest – can be used to build an entire dogmatic structure that is far faaaar from the understanding one gets when one scoops up all the different versions and sees what the point of the hadith was, as it was conveyed generation to generation.
And this is very obvious with regard to the so-called ‘hadith of the slave girl’.
I urge you to reflect over the example of the 12 khalifas I presented. Ponder over, and realize, the fact that a Shi’ite could justify his belief of 12 imams if he employed the salafite methodology of standing TOO close to the painting such that he observes only one brush stroke on the canvas.
And there are waaay more examples than the one I presented. One only has to pick up Sahih Muslim and read.
The picture is bigger, bro. It’s about time Sufis, Salafis, Shias and everyone else realizes that.
Wassalam.
as salaamu alaykum,
Jazakallaah khayr tilmeedh, I will reflect over your words. Thanks abul layth for posting the link again. Inshaallah ill meditate on this. Allaah reward you both with good.
by the way, im in florida tell me where these monkeys are i need help with me aqidah!
Forget the monkeys… ask Allah.
“27:62 …Who listens to the (soul) distressed when it calls on Him, and Who relieves its suffering…”
The key is to submit completely, break down, and admit your own ignorance and neediness for His help.
By the way, what we all need is better grounding in epistemology; even if every average person cannot [and should not] be charged with this responsibility.
But if one’s mind is the ever-inquiring type, such a person *cannot* do without first understanding the establishing principles, the nature and scope of proofs, the methodology to reconcile conflicting evidences, etc.
Without this, one is like a person with a craving to acquire the apple hanging from the tree, but without the ladder to reach it. You might attempt to climb up the trunk, but if you’re not good at climbing trees…. hmm, well….
Jazakallaah khayr for the article! Do you have an article on the Ashaa’irah? The Salafis spend hours stripping this Aqeedah and say they are Ahlul Bid’ah for they do Ta’weel on yad, wajh and so forth. They even say they are the twins of Mu’tazilah, naudhubillaah, it would be of great benefit if you had anything on the topic.
Salaamu ‘Alaykum Buthayna,
As for us having articles on the asha’ri doctrine, then see our ‘aqidah section. I recommend that you read the set of fine works translated by Dr. G.f Haddad:
The Belief of the People of Truth (Islamic Doctrines & Beliefs) of Ibn Abdus-Salaam
Correct Islamic Doctrine/Islamic Doctrine by Ibn Khafif
Allah’s Names and Attributes (Islamic Doctrines & Beliefs) by Imam Al-Bayhaqi
and also: Beliefs: Encyclopedia of Islamic Doctrine, Vol. 1 by Muhammad Hisham Kabbani – however it was really written by Shaykh G.f Haddad.
These four books explain the doctrine well. I have only found incredibly minor mistakes in the footnotes, such as mispelling of names etc, and the translation of the actual text is superb. I wish they could be edited and republished with more information etc. But the fact is the appendixes of these books will help enormously in understanding the doctrine of the Asha’ris.
Also the new translation of Ibn Al-Jawzi’s Daf’ under the name: The Attributes of God by Abdullah bin Hamid ‘Ali.
Are the works translated by Gibril Fouad Haddad available on the Downloadables, or are you just recommending them? Because I cannot fine them or the translation of Ibn al Jawzi Daf’ there.
They have copyright bro…so no